joelrosenberg ([info]joelrosenberg) wrote,

Pants at the "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota" burst into flame. Film at 11.

It's not always what they say that can be a lie; it's what they leave out.  Here's the story, in full, complete from the "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota" website:
A Packers fan from Red Wing, Minnnesota draws his gun during a Christmas Eve dispute at the Metrodome. Read the FOX 9 News story.
That's it.  Notice something missing?  Let's look at the full story. Emphasis mine, as are the further indented stuff in italics.
Packer Fan Packin' Heat
Packin' Heat? Let's read on.
The Vikings and Packers have some of the most devoted and rabid fans in the NFL. Here’s a story of how that rivalry went way, way too far. The Fox 9 Investigators discovered a case you'll have to hear to believe.
If then.
Green Bay and Minneapolis Police tell us this is the regular season match up where they expect trouble, the rowdiest fans, and always a few fights. But how about a fan pulling out a handgun to settle a dispute?

Q: “Have you ever seen anything like this happen at a game?”
A: "Every Packer game. Every Packer game something that happens."

Season ticket holder Michael Shun knew the Christmas Eve showdown would provide fireworks, and not just on the field.

"Probably about a third of the way down is where the scuffle started."

Still, nothing prepared him for the post-game scrimmage as 60,000 people began leaving the Metrodome.

"Just like in high school whole crowd gathers around starts pushing each other around."

On one side, dressed in full Viking gear, the Gibson brothers from Illinois. On the other, outfitted in Packer wear, the McElroy brothers from Minnesota and Wisconsin.

"It was just jawin back and forth."

Both sides deserve a flag for unsportsman-like conduct.

"The Packer's like how'd you like getting it for the second time."
Huh?
"Next thing I know the Packer's drawn a gun."

That's right, the Packer's packin' heat.

"He pulls out a gun, and he's pointing it directly at you, and he keeps walking."

How was Packer fan, Larry McElroy, allowed to bring a handgun into the dome, where weapons are banned?
Err, no, they aren't. The provision for banning the carrying of firearms into establishments was established, for the first time, by the MCPPA. As regular readers of this LiveJournal have noticed, the MCPPA has been on hold since June 13, and that includes the posting provisions. Besides, it gets better... he's not just a "fan" -- he's a cop.
The Fox 9 investigators discovered he was an off-duty Minnesota cop.
Now, let me get this straight: we're halfway through the story before we get to the fact that the guy who drew a gun -- whether properly or not is another question -- is a police officer?  Do these reporters moonlight in reporting for the "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota"? 
 A Red Wing Police Officer. One who's been in trouble before. He’s had a DWI in June, 2001, reduced to careless driving. So he kept his job.

Q: 'No one had any idea they were dealing with a cop?' A: 'No idea.'
Of course, maybe the cop mentioning it could have clued them in?
"The guy with the gun never said he was a cop, never showed a badge."
That's not what the police report says.
When the rolling brawl made it to the street, McElroy tucked away his weapon.

"It's right over here the cops get involved."

Michael Shun found a couple of Minneapolis police officers, who seemed to believe their fellow cop.

"He just took the word of whatever the other cop had to say as gold and just ignored everything we had to say."

According to the police reports, Larry McElroy says he identified himself as a cop, then Kevin Gibson punched him in the face, saying "I don't give a (blank) about your badge."
Smooth move, Kevin.
"Why would anyone charge a guy that you think has a gun, why would you do that?”

The Gibson brother's were arrested and booked for assault and disorderly conduct. The brothers McElroy walked away. Larry McElroy was never even checked to see if he was intoxicated.

"Who's to say he doesn't go to the game, have a couple, think he's invincible, now he's got a sidearm, he can take it one step further than everyone else."
Nobody, I guess. But, hey, the prohibition against carrying while intoxicated went away -- for the time being -- along with the MCPPA.  If the MCPPA was in effect, the MPD folks could have insisted that he take a breathalizer test.  But, nope.  Doesn't matter how drunk he was;  there's no crime of carrying while intoxicated while the MCPPA is on hold.
The Fox 9 Investigators went to Red Wing to get answers.

"Turn that camera off. No I'm not. Turn that camera off."

"We're you drinking when you had your gun out at the Metrodome."

Instead, officer McElroy called his fellow cops for back up. Michael Shun can't help thinking that's exactly what he should've done at the game.

"I don't see why you need a gun for here anyway, Metrodome has security, so just leave it home, it's Christmas Eve, leave it at home."

His boss, the Red Wing Police Chief was unaware his officer got involved in a fight at the Dome until we told him about it. It’s unclear whether Officer McElroy will face any discipline.

As far as the Viking fans from Illinois, the Gibson brother's have a court date next month. They wouldn't do an on-camera interview, but as expected told me the Packer fan started it all.
A few obvious points. One is that, law or not, avoid drinking when you're carrying.  If you're going to get into arguments with people, do it over the phone.  Sure.  And that applies when you're an off-duty cop -- if you can.  Maybe Officer McElroy couldn't -- I guess we'll see what happens in court.  My guess is that the Gibson brothers plead out, but save that for another day.

But note what was missing from the "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota" report?  Permit holder?  Nah -- a cop.  How do the "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota" think that repealing the MCPPA would keep police officers from carrying firearms?

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  • 19 comments

Anonymous

January 11 2005, 03:53:46 UTC 7 years ago

I wonder if this off duty officer even had a carry permit?

[info]jdege

January 11 2005, 16:11:00 UTC 7 years ago

One of the provisions of the MCPPA that would have been relevent, had it not been stayed by Judge Finley - the MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops as well as by permit holders.

The MCPPA makes it illegal to carry a gun on a premises that posts "no guns", with exceptions only for on duty law enforcement and security guards.

Or it would have, had Judge Finley not ruled as he did.

[info]patcannon

January 11 2005, 20:30:39 UTC 7 years ago

MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops

>the MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops as well as by permit holders.

I didn't know that! I wonder if most cops knew that, and what percentage of the time they ignored/will ignore it.

Anonymous

January 12 2005, 03:36:49 UTC 7 years ago

Re: MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops

Cops will pay about as much attention to that as doctors who smoke do to no-smoking signs.

Anonymous

January 12 2005, 15:47:04 UTC 7 years ago

Re: MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops

Ignore it? How about not enforcing it for fellow officers?

Somehow the idea that a law that seperates off duty cops from their guns and is enforced by the same cops when on duty sounds to me like one that wouldn't ever get enforced.

Just more of the unique privileges accorded to those who agree to enforce the security state.

[info]joelrosenberg

January 12 2005, 23:21:29 UTC 7 years ago

Re: MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops

1. Probably very few.
2. Roughly 100%.

[info]patcannon

January 13 2005, 05:06:58 UTC 7 years ago

Re: MCPPA bans carry on posted premises by off-duty cops

Yeah. Question 2, especially, was pretty much rhetorical.

It'll only become a public issue if an off-duty cop thwarts a school shooting or some such thing. Then somebody will probably be crass enough to point out that our hero is a criminal due to the MPPA.

Don't many, or at least some PDs still require their officers to carry when off-shift? In such a case might they in some twisted legal sense be considered on-duty 24/7?

[info]vfrdirk

January 13 2005, 19:37:54 UTC 7 years ago

Slightly off-topic, but the next article on the CSM page includes the following passage:

"The 3-judge panel will issue their opinion before April 13. If the ruling is upheld, as expected, the gun lobby will likely reintroduce concealed carry in 2005." --emphasis mine

So, we're both expecting the ruling to in our own favor? Since much of the material on the CSM site is based in fantasy, I'm assuming this is, too, but is it really a foregone conclusion in their minds?

Dirk

[info]joelrosenberg

January 13 2005, 22:00:42 UTC 7 years ago

I wouldn't want to try to read Rebecca Thoman's mind, but you're reading it wrong -- she says she's expecting the ruling (Judge Finley's silly decision) to be upheld.

That said, I'm sure that she's been told better by Lillehaug. Lillehaug didn't even argue his own case in front of the Appeals Court today, but sent in a backbencher.

[info]jdege

January 13 2005, 19:55:10 UTC 7 years ago

Hatch is handling the arguments personally, which is likely to convince the court that Finley's decision goes far beyond just striking down a gun law.

And we had a pro-gun decision come down from David Minge just a week or so ago - and he's the judge on the panel I'd have most likely considerered to be reflexively anti-gun.

Still - if this bill fails, we're going to have a GOP majority in the Senate after 2006.

[info]mattpayne

January 14 2005, 20:48:17 UTC 7 years ago

What Minge ruling?

Jeff, what was that Minge pro-gun decision?

[info]faro

January 14 2005, 21:03:50 UTC 7 years ago

Re: What Minge ruling?

I think he is referring to this: http://www.courts.state.mn.us/opinions/coa/current/opa040803-0111.htm

I really don't see this as a pro-gun decision though.

[info]vfrdirk

January 13 2005, 22:10:20 UTC 7 years ago

Err...that's what I was trying to say. Seriously, I rewrote the sentence about 5 times to try to convey the idea (that we think it's going to go our way and they think it's going to go their way) and that's the best I could come up with. Man, I need a copy of Strunk and White's and a beer...

I will admit that I was surprised to hear that Lillehaug sent in a proxy. He was so vocal and irritating at the John Lott debate last year, but I guess it's better to get your face off the front page when you think you're going to lose.

Dirk

[info]faro

January 13 2005, 23:17:44 UTC 7 years ago

It was funny to watch the Lillehaug's sub get all flustered and off track by Judge Randall's questioning. It was also nice to see Mr. Tanick relegated to making a couple of check marks on their poorly used poster. I guess the lawyers wanted to make the Churches feel like they were getting their money's worth (yes, I know).

[info]faro

January 14 2005, 07:55:11 UTC 7 years ago

Hatch did a better job than I expected though he read from his notes too much...

Anonymous

January 14 2005, 16:02:46 UTC 7 years ago

wha?

if guns enable violence, how does adding more guns empower citizens? just starts an arms race ... making everyone unsafe.

[info]jdege

January 14 2005, 17:18:32 UTC 7 years ago

Re: wha?

Violence isn't an evil in and of itself.

Violence is evil only when directed at inappropriate targets.


"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that 'violence begets violence.' I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure — and in some cases I have — that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."


-Jeff Cooper, "Cooper vs. Terrorism", Guns & Ammo Annual, 1975




[info]joelrosenberg

January 14 2005, 17:26:32 UTC 7 years ago

Re: wha?

That's an interesting theory -- how do you reconcile that with 35 states having "shall issue" laws without there being any such problems?

Anonymous

January 18 2005, 21:36:16 UTC 7 years ago

Larry McElroy

Hello,

I do not have a live journal account, sorry, but I graduated from Red Wing High School in 2003. Larry McElroy was the Police Officer assigned to the High School for one year, until he was removed for assult. He was been nothing but trouble for the Red Wing Community, and I would say that it's the violent man behind the gun that is the problem, and not the gun.

He was also put on probation once for slapping someone he pulled over, with no reasoning behind it. He has been in many Red Wing paper articles over the last few years and I wasn't surprised when I read about this.

Thought I'd add that fyi. Best Wishes.

RW Grad of '03
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