joelrosenberg ([info]joelrosenberg) wrote,
@ 2005-07-24 13:40:00
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DPS certification process -- the background [updated]
Update 7/28/2005 -- Tim Grant of AACFI copied me on the first tweaked draft of the standards, and they've been inserted below. Again: this what the assembled group walked out of the June 21 meeting with, and not what the MSA presented to them at the June 21 meeting. Tim didn't keep a copy of the original draft, and if anybody either has it, or can get it, I'd like to post it here for the sake of completeness.

Other than that addition, and tweaking to accomodate that, an addition to the footnote, no changes below.

How this all came about

I had a longish chat on Friday with Tim Grant, VP of AACFI, about the whole DPS certification process, and I've written here about how I think it's likely to all come down.  But I've been getting some inquiries -- polite and otherwise -- as to how the whole process happened, and Tim filled me in on his perspective Friday, and crossed a few t's and dotted a few i's for me a few minutes ago. 

No, I'm not speaking for Tim or AACFI -- do we have to go through that again so soon? -- but I am reporting on how the process appears to have happened according to the information I have.  (I'd have liked to have been involved in the various meetings, but for whatever reason, I wasn't in the loop, and only heard about them last Friday.  There's other folks in the same boat, so I'm not lonely.) 

The process started with the Minnesota Sheriffs Association putting together a rather lengthy list of requirements that they thought carry permit instructors and students should meet, and sent that off to the BCA, where it landed on SAC Luther's desk -- reasonable, as he'd been given the responsibility of writing up the standards for the DPS.  The Sheriffs Association still had some strong feelings about what carry permit instructors should be trained in, and had come in with a long list of things that sounded more like POST qualifications than anything else. 

They held a meeting with SAC Luther and most (not quite all) of the other folks, below, on June 21 at the Minnesota Sheriffs Association in Woodbury.  There, the sheriffs' first draft was discussed and tweaked a little.  Tim promised to send the tweaked draft to me, and when it gets here, I'll post it right here.  He did, and here it is:

  (d) A person qualifies as a certified instructor if the person is certified as a

firearms instructor within the past five years by:

an organization or government entity that has been approved by the Department of Public Safety in accordance with the department's standards. To receive DPS approval, organizations must meet the following standard business practices:

  • Register their business or organization with the Minnesota Secretary of State’s Office and provide a certificate of authenticity to the BCA.

  • Maintain instructor and student training records

  • Direct the instructional conduct of instructors

  • Maintain the proficiency levels of instructors

  • Verify that the curriculum used to train instructors and permit holders meets the minimum instructional criteria

Government entities and private organizations may grant instructional certificates to those people that are certified as firearms instructors within

the past five years in a firearms instructor course that has been approved

by the Minnesota Peace Officer and Training Standards Board and/or have met the following minimum instructional standards:

a. fundamentals of adult learning, techniques for assessing learning, and course development skills that will allow that person to competently teach a basic firearms training course;

b. an ability to explain the circumstances pertaining to criminal and civil issues surrounding the use of deadly force, (for the state of Minnesota and in Federal law), effects of stress on reaction time, and psychological effects of critical incidents;

c. mechanical skills and shooting fundamentals necessary to enable a student to safely and effectively handle their firearms.

d. conducting mandated proficiency testing for the student in mechanical skills, shooting accuracy, target identification, firearm malfunction drills, and firearm concealment techniques;

e. an ability to identify situations and considerations involved in determining whether the use of a firearm is proper;

f. simple weapon retention techniques both for holstered and drawn firearms;

g. firearm care, cleaning, and safe storage; and

h. an ability to evaluate student’s skill proficiency in practical handgun firing exercises in both daylight and night firing exercises.

But, he adds, the first draft was much worse than the above, which is the tweaked first draft; the above, Tim explains, is what the group walked out of the meeting with, not what the Sheriffs Assocation walked into the meeting with.  Many people attending the first meeting thought that the work wasn't finished, and when I see the first draft, Tim says, I'll know why.  There were some differences of opinion about what should be required, and how things should be administered -- Leonard Bruere of Bill's Gun Shop wanted extensive training in low-light shooting and holster work, for example.

A decision was made by the MSA and SAC Luther to have another meeting to tweak what they had come up with out of the first one, as, again:  some of the folks there had some concerns that hadn't been met. 

On July 6, they convened another meeting at the MSA HQ in Woodbury, to hammer out the details. The working group attending the July 6 meeting: 
  • Jim Franklin, the Executive of the Minnesota Sheriffs Association
  • SAC Jeff Luther, representing the DPS/BCA
  • Harlan Johnson, the head of the Minnesota Police Chiefs organization
  • Joe Olson and Tim Grant, representing AACFI
  • Leonard Breure, representing Bill's Gun Shop
  • Andrea Murphy of "Atalanta Lady," representing the NRA*
  • Moose Hallin, an instructor from not-too-far outstate
  • Jason Christiansen, representing MALEFI and another instructor group (Tim didn't know the name; neither do I, or I'd tell you)
  • Patrick Farrell (a metro-area instructor) , and
  • Jim Carlson (a candidate for the MN Senate seat in District 38; he had been sent by Rebecca Thoman's group)
And on July 7, SAC Luther sent out the recommended regulations that we've looked at. 

_________________________
* I left a voicemail for Andrea about this last Friday, but I haven't heard back from her.  From what I know of the NRA, that sounds strange to me -- the only position in the NRA that Andrea holds, as far as I know, is an NRA Training Counselor, and TCs aren't normally authorized to speak for the NRA when negotiating with government agencies -- but stranger things have been known to happen; Tim says that she had a document with her saying that she had the NRA's authority to represent the NRA at the meeting.

Update:  7/28/2005 -- I've left three more voicemails for Andrea, and still haven't heard back.  At least one other local instructor has called NRA to inquire about this supposed authorization that she had to represent the NRA and negotiate on behalf of MN NRA instructors, but, so far, nobody's gotten any information at all about her appointment to represent the NRA at the meeting, as far as I know.  I still very much doubt -- very much -- that any authoritative voice at the NRA appointed her to represent the NRA on any political matter, but it's not utterly, totally, and completely impossible that somebody at Training could have sent her an email or letter that might possibly have been misconstrued that way.  I'd be better able to evaluate that if I saw the letter or email, but, see above.

Short form:  I still dunno what that was all about, but I do not believe that there was actual NRA representation in those meetings, although Joe Olson, Moose and Andrea are all NRA-certified instructors in various disciplines -- Andrea is a Training Counselor --  and wouldn't be at all surprised if Leonard Bruere and Patrick Farrell are, too, but my guess is that there was nobody actually representing the NRA at the meeting, which is a matter for the NRA to take up, when they get around to it. 

Update:  8/28/2005 -- I've heard from the NRA: Andrea Murphy was not authorized or commissioned by NRA to negotiate with anybody on any political matter. Period.



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[info]mattpayne
2005-07-24 11:40 pm UTC (link)
So how, I wonder, did the attendees get to the meeting? Were they invited? Did they ask to be part of the process? Who decided that they represent trainers, permit holders or their best interests? Where was our faithful correspondent, Joel, in all of this?

If the DPS is going to construct the standards with external input (which they should), shouldn't the process be a little more open and transparent? I would have expected a public announcement and public hearings, or at least the open formation of a steering committee.

Or did I miss the announcement from the DPS, and the one from CCRN?

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[info]joelrosenberg
2005-07-25 05:31 am UTC (link)
I can't speak as to why I wasn't there, other than I didn't know it was going on. As to where I was, I was about two miles away at the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]brbethke
2005-07-25 02:06 am UTC (link)
Leonard Bruere of Bill's Gun Shop wanted extensive training in low-light shooting


A condition that, oddly enough, would heavily favor those instructors lucky enough to be associated with commercial or law enforcement indoor ranges, as every outdoor public range in the state that I'm aware of is required to cease fire at or before dusk.

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[info]joelrosenberg
2005-07-25 02:20 am UTC (link)
A rather interesting coincidence, that.

The rules at Burnsville Pistol Range, by the way, prohibit low-light shooting, and Roger at BPR has been rather repeatedly clear that he's not interested in shutting out unaffiliated instructors from using the range. (He -- and Sue -- are of the opinion that their own training program there can compete without any effort whatsoever to lock out the competition. I think they're right -- they run a great course.)

Even if he changed the rules there, that would still work against instructors, affiliated or unaffiliated, if this low-light shooting requirement had gone through. It's rarely a problem to get a lane or two, if you're willing to wait for a few minutes (when I bring my students, the typical wait until we get started probably averages under five minutes.) But -- even assuming Roger changed his rules -- if we had to wait until we could get one of the bays so that we could -- under the theoretical rules change -- be able to shut off the lights, we'd have a hard time getting in on a weekend at all.

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Not every range
[info]mn_mobocracy
2005-07-26 08:14 pm UTC (link)
Metro Gun Club has night shooting of the various shotgun disciplines, although I'm a little dubious on whether the duck tower is lit. But I know for certain that the skeet and sporting clays fields are, some of the trap fields may not be.

I'm not sure how this factors into a statewide dusk ceasefire unless there's a specific exemption for shotguns. It can't be purely a noise thing as a 12 guage #7.5 heavy target load is arguably as loud as most pistol loads.

To me it sounds like Bill's is just trying to do something with their lock on half of the indoor range space (more by lane, I'm sure) in the metro area.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

LOW LIGHT SHOOTING?
[info]lastgunshop
2005-07-25 03:42 am UTC (link)
Well we can always thank some of the gun range's for there help in make this easy. (RIGHT) As far as low light shooting, this can be done at a outdoor range. Going back to my day's in the US Army we trained in day light for low light shooting by having them shoot with sunglass on. This works as well as going out at night or turning down the light's in a range

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