joelrosenberg ([info]joelrosenberg) wrote,
@ 2005-06-05 14:12:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Synthesis
Take this article by Adam Minter -- a moderately well-written, largely hysteria-restrained take on how bad he thinks the encroachment of religious views on state government is, and one in which he works hard and successfully to only use examples of the religious right trying to enact their views into law -- and then add in this deconstruction of how the Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, presenting himself as spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference, which is the "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota," and speaking before the Crime and Public Safety Committee of the Minnesota House of Representatives (which is not, by the way, an arm of the Minnesota Catholic Conference -- which is "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota," just in case you were wondering) in a bold-faced, unabashed attempt to persuade legislators to enact into law his own neo-lefty, ill-considered, kumbahyah-singing religious views of what public policy should be....

... and what do you have?

Basically, "everybody does it." 

I got a radical idea.  Let's acknowledge that people -- of any religious conviction, or none -- will bring their own religious convictions, if any, about the way that the universe does and ought to work to the table when discussing public policy.  Let's agree that an individual's interpretation of what their own religious denomination, if any, has to say about public policy is entirely up to that individual . . .

. . . and then let's leave it there, and, when talking about public policy, try real hard to talk about it in both sensible and secular terms, and avoid -- particularly in front of official committees of legislative bodies -- thumping the bibles so damn hard, and so bloody often.

Let's not expect that people not of the speaker's sect should waste a moment worrying about what the religious views of some other sect are, not when discussing policy.  Members of the speaker's religious sect?  Hey, it's their call.  Not my problem. 

But for the rest of us?  No special privileges for folks who thump Bibles -- no matter what sect they claim to be thumping said Bibles on behalf of, or how loudly they thump said Bibles... or, for that matter, Korans, Talmuds, or Selections from the Utterances of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.

Let's leave the careful attention to the religious opinions of the Most Reverend Richard E. Pates -- Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference, which is,  in case the news hasn't gotten to you, "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota" -- back at the offices of his Archdiocese.  

If Rich Pates -- just another unmarried guy who works in St. Paul somewhere -- has something to contribute to the secular discussion of issues involving the law and practice of self-defense, well, then, let him trot it out, and we'll discuss his comments in secular terms.  But let's invite him to introduce himself as Rich Pates -- just another unmarried guy who works in St. Paul somewhere.  When he's talking about public policy, let's not have him be promoted (I was tempted to use a less generous word than "promoted") by Rebecca Thoman or anybody else -- most certainly including Rich Pates -- as the Most Reverend Richard E. Pates (the Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference, which is  "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota", in case you hadn't heard).

If members of his religious sect want to give special weight to his religious pronouncements, well, then, that's fine.  The majority of us -- who aren't bound by even authoritative opinions on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church -- can just turn off our ears, if we'd like, when he's talking about whatever he thinks his religious sect's creed says that the rest of us ought to do.  

Alternately, if there's those of use who feel that the most Reverend Richard E. Pates -- even when presenting himself as Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference, which is, you might not be surprised to hear, "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota" -- doesn't know squat about self-defense, either in practice, in law, or in public policy... well, let's not be shy about pointing out that Rich Pates, just another unmarried guy who works in St. Paul somewhere, doesn't seem to know much on the subject, and that much of what he seems to know is wrong.

And, fair is fair:  let's do the same for Chaplain Dan Hall, a minister who lobbies on behalf of his own religious beliefs about what law should be.  If Dan Hall has some secular views he wants to share -- about abortion, same-sex marriage, or whatever -- let's give him a listen. 

Here's what let's not do:  let's not give the Most Reverend Richard E. Pates -- Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota," just in case you didn't know -- some special secular status mysteriously arising from his pointy hat (bishops got pointy hats, right?)  that we'll deny to Chaplain Dan Hall and his simple clerical collar. 

But, hell, if Rich and Dan have something they want to talk to their own true believers about, in religious terms, that's just fine.  But when they talk to the rest of us, let's try to keep things secular.

Dan?  Rich?  You in? 



(23 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]ravenclaw_eric
2005-06-05 09:25 pm UTC (link)
The thing is, I have no problem with the Religious Right, OR the Religious Left, trying to get their views into law. That is their privilege as citizens, and little as I like either sort of religious type, if it were ever to the point that their views were being suppressed by force of law, I'd be one of the first ones to the barricades.

That said, I'm also the son of a Preacher's Kid and singularly unimpressed by religious titles. I'll use them when speaking to those who carry them, but they cut no ice with me whatsoever.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

/agree
[info]exoticmatter
2005-06-05 10:40 pm UTC (link)
Gotta agree here. As far as I'm concerned, most religious titles mean that someone has studied a particular book more than I have. In the same way that the title MCSE next to my name means diddly squat, so does the title 'Reverend' or 'Father' mean next to someone else's. They'll get the respect due any human being until I see that they are either due more or less based upon their opinions and behaviors.

Sub

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Last time I looked...
[info]wombat_socho
2005-06-06 01:57 am UTC (link)
...Catholics were as entitled as anyone else to defend themselves, no matter what the Lords Spiritual might think. When it comes to theology and what the Church's position on matters moral is, I'll listen to the bishops, especially the Big Guy in Rome. However, when it comes to gun control (and economics) I have come to the regretful conclusion that most of the American bishops are trying to blow smoke up my ass, and I ain't having any. Don't they have enough to do inside the Church WRT matters theological anyway?

(Reply to this)


[info]brbethke
2005-06-06 03:29 am UTC (link)
The Catholic Church? Is this the same Catholic Church that beatified St. Gabriel Possenti, the Patron Saint of Handgunners, or am I confusing it with another Catholic Church?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]joelrosenberg
2005-06-06 10:07 am UTC (link)
I dunno about such things. Heck, I don't even claim that the "True Catholic Church" -- see http://www.truecatholic.org -- is or isn't the true Catholic Church.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

religious right
[info]donalddoo
2005-06-06 05:28 pm UTC (link)
I would tend to be careful banging on the religious right. And I’m not saying they were the focus of this string, but I did read a comment or two. This “Most Reverend Richard E. Pates -- Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and spokesman for the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference "the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota," is no where near the religious right. He is using his “religion” to try and push his personal agenda but his “religion” has very little in common with those on the right. I will never use my religious beliefs in a political ploy and try and push my Christianity on someone else and expect you to live by my moral standards. I will and do however frame all I do from what I believe, just as everyone religious or not does.
The “church” groups that are trying to ban guns from their buildings and parking lots are not the religious right. They are as far left in the religious forum as the “metrocrats” are in the political forum. I would venture to say that “most” of the religious right would be in favor gun rights and at the very least not against them. i.e.the Gov that signed this into law. I think a lot of the support for the carry permits came from the religious right and I count myself as part of this group. I know many people in my church that have permits including one of our pastors. The right to protect yourself is not a religious right but it is a God given right.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: religious right
[info]loboboy
2005-06-06 07:32 pm UTC (link)
I don't think Joel's plan would retain any credibility if we cherry picked a few religious sects and gave them special exemptions. Either religious beliefs are or are not valid basis upon which to create public policy. I think the answer to that is fairly obvious: religious beliefs most definitely are not valid basis upon which to create public policy because they are beliefs, and not provable facts, and different people have different beliefs. As Joseph Campbell explained, "Mythology can best be described as other people's religion." You can't prove your religion is right and other peoples' religions are wrong any more than you can prove that blue is a prettier color than red.

Step outside of your own religious beliefs for a moment to see how they look to others. For example, the other day I was explaining to my boss about the pagan ritual of "The Great Rite." In this sacrament, pagans dip the blade of a dagger in a chalice of wine to simulate the sex act. My boss thought that was pretty weird, but then I pointed out to him that Christians use a chalice of wine and a cracker to simulate cannibalism. To him the pagan sacrament was weird, but to me, an agnostic, both the pagan and Christian sacraments are pretty freaky.

My point is that if you try to say that the Pagans and Catholics are wrong, but the Baptists and Assembly of Godders are right and deserve a voice in public policy, you have no more credibiliy than if you argue the opposite, or if you say that we should base public policy on a religion that worships a bullet-riddled wringer washing machine half buried in a northwestern Minnesotan gravel pit. Yes, pagans, Catholics, Baptists, Assembly of Godders, and Wringer Washing Machinites can have a say in public policy, but the validity of that say is based on their own personal qualifications rather than their religious beliefs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: religious right
[info]jdege
2005-06-07 01:26 pm UTC (link)

religious beliefs most definitely are not valid basis upon which to create public policy because they are beliefs, and not provable facts,


You're sounding like a Socialist or a Randite - both groups, despite their opposing views on what is appropriate public policy, believed that public policy should be rationally derived. That we have the capability, through reason, to determine how a society should be structured.

You need to read more Hayek. Hayek understood the hubris of this concept - that societies are complex beyond any hope of human comprehension, and that the rules they operate by have been adopted through an evolutionary process, not a rational one. And that the link between rule and consequence is indirect, non-linear, and impossible to determine rationally.

The manchus used to have all these religious beliefs concerning how marmots should be hunted. All of them bollocks, of course, but in practice they allowed them to hunt marmots without contracting plague. It's not that these beliefs were adopted for the purpose of preventing plague, it's that those manchus who didn not have some method to prevent plague died.

And when unification with China allowed han commercial hunters to enter Manchuria and begin trapping marmots, the results were exactly as you might predict.

So I simply can't agree with the idea that religion should not be considered a valid basis for creating public policy, simply because it's non-rational.

No system which was entirely rational has ever worked.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: religious right
[info]loboboy
2005-06-07 03:41 pm UTC (link)
The Manchurian regulations regarding the hunting of marmots were all well and good before modern science learned about germs and bacteria, but now they are no longer necessary because we have a more rational approach. Similarly the Old Testament of the Bible is loaded with all sorts of prohibitions against eating cloven hoofed animals that cheweth not the cud, or sitting on a stool that has been sat upon by a menstruating woman, but the fact is rational hygienic practices and meat preparation techniques have made that tool obsolete. Thus all we are left with are the subjective moral regulations, which are too arbitrary and biased to be used as a basis for creating public policy.

I think I'll pass on this Hayek fellow. It sounds like he does too many intellectual back flips to make his subjective moral biases match his rational world view.

Enough of this. I should have known better than to try to have a rational discussion with people who believe their own subjective moral system is The One and Only Righteous Path. That's about as productive as arguing for teaching children firearms safety with a pink-sweatered bliss ninny. I apologize for wasting the bandwidth.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: religious right
[info]jdege
2005-06-07 03:53 pm UTC (link)

I think I'll pass on this Hayek fellow. It sounds like he does too many intellectual back flips to make his subjective moral biases match his rational world view.


I think you're entirely misunderstanding who he is and what he taught:


http://www.self-gov.org/freeman/920800.htm

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Re: Religious right
[info]donalddoo
2005-06-06 08:28 pm UTC (link)
Maybe the part of my post where I stated “I will never use my religious beliefs in a political ploy and try and push my Christianity on someone else and expect you to live by my moral standards.” somehow went unread? I am not a proponent of religion making law. All I was hoping to do is point out that you may want to avoid inflammatory comments like “Christians use a chalice of wine and a cracker to simulate cannibalism.”
Because a lot of the support this bill received was from the people you are seemingly trying to piss off with your comments. I have no interest in creating law that makes you act and think, as I act and think. Never once in my post was I trying to convince anyone that a Christian voice needs to be a part of this action. I was simply pointing out that a lot of people support what’s going on here and they also happen to be Christians, so quit slamming them. They are not the ones trying to push there agenda on you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Re: Religious right
[info]loboboy
2005-06-06 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I'm not trying to piss anyone off. What I said is, to pardon the expression, the God's honest truth--you eat a cracker that symbolises the body of Christ and drink a cup of wine that symbolizes the blood of Christ. Let's see... eating flesh? drinking blood? How can you possibly argue that such a sacrament is not symbolic cannibalism?

My point wasn't to criticize Christianity, paganism, or Washing Machinism. My point was to illustrate that all our personal religious beliefs seem, at the very least, bizarre to people who don't share those beliefs. And since none of these bizarre beliefs can ever be proven empirically, none of them, whether from the Christian right or radical left, have any business whatsoever being a basis for creating public policy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Re: Religious right
[info]exoticmatter
2005-06-07 11:16 am UTC (link)
The point that was made to me when I once offended a friend similarly was that it wasn't that you are 'eating' the body of Christ, but that during the Communion, you are literally becoming one with Christ on more than just a spiritual level, with all of the attendant responsibility thereof.

That sense of responsibility may cause people to vote a certain way. That said; I grow concerned when they twist what He had to say with what they want, as the bishop did. I try and vote for the right thing, and I do not attempt to legislate religion.

Bartleby

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Re: Religious right
[info]loboboy
2005-06-07 03:25 pm UTC (link)
Bartleby, I understand what you're saying and am not trying to pick on you, but you are not "literally" becoming one with Christ. You are symbolically becoming one with Christ. Literally, you are eating a tasteless little cracker.

And that's my whole point--you can't create legislation based on your own interpretation of symbolism, nor on the interpretation of an organized religion (and I understand that this is not what you are advocating). I belabor this point because it is critically important if we are to maintain a free society. The problem is that symbolism can reasonably be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and which one is correct is purely a matter of opinion. You interpret the symbolism of the sacrament as becoming one with the body of Christ. That's a good and useful interpretation, but my interpretation of it as ritualistic cannibalism is equally valid because you are indeed symbolically consuming flesh and blood. In fact, my interpretation would be easier to prove in a court of law because the language of the sacrament backs up that interpretation.

Which goes to show you how arbitrary and irrational it is to create legislation based on religious beliefs. I haven't altered the sacrament one bit to come up with my description; I've simply stripped away one level of symbolic interpretation. Christ told his followers to eat bread and drink wine (layer 1: the literal act). Then he said that the bread represented his flesh and the wine his blood (layer 2: the first symbolic interpretation). Later the Catholic Church interpreted this act to mean becoming one with Christ (layer 3: the second symbolic interpretation). If you started thinking about the sacrament, it could symbolize a number of other things, too, which is true of every aspect of every religion. This makes religion a wonderful tool for spiritual fulfillment, but far too ambiguous, arbitrary, and biased to have any place whatsoever in creating public policy.

Again, I apologize for belaboring a point that should be obvious to any half-bright adult, but the encroachment of religion on public policy is one of the greatest dangers facing America today. We experienced it from the left with the overturning of the MPPA, and places like Kansas are experiencing it from the right with the inclusion of "intelligent design" into its public school curriculum. It doesn't matter if your tyrant is a demagogical Catholic Bishop, a fire-breathing televangelist, a hard-line Ayatollah, a flatulent Austrian anti-Semite, or a maniacal Soviet dictator: tyranny is tyranny, and it cannot be tolerated in a free society.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Re: Religious right
[info]donalddoo
2005-06-07 04:12 pm UTC (link)
You seem very passionate about making your point. Point made. You have gone to a great effort to say something that didn’t need to be said. My original post about this had NOTHING to do with supporting religions making public policy. I only was asking that we not bash everyone simply because you have some issues with them. I think it was wrong for the “Most Reverend nut case” to get up and try and push his agenda. Now you’ve gone off on some idiotic, juvenile, buried deep in your twisted psyche rant about the sacraments that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here.
I am in total agreement with you on the MPPA. I am in total agreement that my religion, your religion and the Most Reverend dip sticks religion need not be a part of policy. So what is driving you so passionately to keep pounding this thing about communion?
I don’t recall reading any of the posts that say they want communion to be a part of policy making. The only thing I read is people trying to defend what it means to them, and it has nothing to do with including those beliefs in policy making. Yet every time you need to respond with your obviously inflammatory comments and try to tie it back into some policy issue. And now because of your comments we are not discussing the MPPA we are discussing religion. So your extreme passion to keep religion out of public policy has now over shadowed what we are here to discuss, the MPPA.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Rights vs Religion
[info]nsmike
2005-06-07 02:15 am UTC (link)
Rights are universal religion is not. The must fundamental right is to life; it should be self evident that without life everything is moot. The second is liberty for without liberty you have slavery. With liberty you are only bound by your own ability. In a state of slavery no matter how benevolent, the slave master holds the power of life or death, this is intolerable. A true slave has the right to kill his master to gain control of his life. Many religions make the mistake of equating robbery to the property stolen rather than to the loss of liberty, during a robbery, the perpetrator assumes the same power of life or death, a slave master has. The right to self defense stems from this relationship not the moral posturing of any religion.
A bit of a rant but I get tired of moralists obscuring basic truths.
Mike

(Reply to this)


[info]bab_
2005-06-07 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I think Donalddoo has a point. My take is that the churches that oppose carry are more accurately characterized as Left leaning than Right.

I agree with pretty much everything Loboboy said. One of my main gripes against religious leaders trying to foist their faith on me in the form of laws, is that they are tax exempt orginizations. I feel their tax exempt status could only possibly be justified in that they provide charitable services. Once they start lobbying in the political arena they should have their tax exempt status yanked.

jdege - could you cite some examples of rational systems that have failed? And did they fail because of their rational underpinnings, or did they fail due to some outside force? If you wish to base government on religious beliefs how do you choose which religion to base it on, how do you deal with contradicting religious beliefs?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mn_mobocracy
2005-06-08 12:00 am UTC (link)
I think all 'systems' are inherently subjective, even those claiming to be rational. Unless someone has formally proved via scientific method all aspects of a rational system, wide swaths of many rational systems remain highly subjective and, like Marxism, can be more or less categorized as non-theistic religions.

I think what's important is the ability of these systems to question their subjective assumptions, find new data, and make changes to their worldviews -- basically a willingness to say "we're wrong, we're changing."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jdege
2005-06-08 03:51 am UTC (link)

basically a willingness to say "we're wrong, we're changing."

It takes more than that. You need a willingness to recognize not just that you might be wrong, but that no solution you might conceive of will work as well as letting individuals make their own decisions based on their own circumstances and understanding.


I'll throw in one quote, and then let those of you who are interested follow up on your own:


Many of those who profess the most individualistic objectives support
collectivist means without recognizing the contradiction. It is tempting
to believe that social evils arise from the activities of evil men
and that if only good men (like ourselves, naturally) wielded power,
all would be well. That view requires only emotion and self-praise -
easy to come by and satisfying as well. To understand why it is that
'good' men in positions of power will produce evil, while the ordinary
man without power but able to engage in voluntary cooperation with his
neighbors will produce good, requires analysis and thought. Surely that
is the answer to the perennial mystery of why collectivism, with its
demonstrated record of producing tyranny and misery, is so widely regarded
as superior to individualism, with its demonstrated record of producing
freedom and plenty. The argument for collectivism is simple if false;
it is an immediate emotional argument. The argument for individualism
is subtle and sophisticated; it is an indirect rational argument.
And the emotional facilities are more highly developed in most men
than the rational, paradoxically or especially even in those who regard
themselves as intellectuals.

- Milton Friedman's introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"


(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]loboboy
2005-06-08 12:33 pm UTC (link)
"Many of those who profess the most individualistic objectives support
collectivist means without recognizing the contradiction. It is tempting
to believe that social evils arise from the activities of evil men
and that if only good men (like ourselves, naturally) wielded power,
all would be well."

This, by its very nature, is not a rational system because it fails to take into account human nature. This is the main problem with socialism--to work, it requires an ideal human animal, which near as I can tell doesn't exist. In other words, socialism is not an example of a "rational" system.

BTW, Donaldo, or whatever your name is, I won't hold a grudge against you because of the low moral values you exhibited when you sunk to the level of attacking me personally if you apologize to me now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jdege
2005-06-08 03:45 am UTC (link)

jdege - could you cite some examples of rational systems that have failed?

That's easy - socialism.

And it failed not because of external forces, but because it is simply not possible to determine a workable allocation of labor and materiel through a rational process.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]mn_mobocracy
2005-06-08 01:27 pm UTC (link)
And it failed not because of external forces, but because it is simply not possible to determine a workable allocation of labor and materiel through a rational process.

...on a macro scale. Guys like Jack Welch presumably get paid hundreds of millions of dollars because they believe they *can* and have determined a workable allocation of labor and material through a rational process.

Although what you define as macro and micro is where it gets tricky...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

left and right
[info]daveminnesota
2005-06-08 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Which of these items are associated with the left?

1. Opposing abortion in any case.
2. Calling homosexuality an unnatural disorder.
3. Opposing sex before marriage, divorce, same-sex marriage.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Bishop. Politically, he's got very little voice in this fight. The Church, in its opposition of abortion, has worked very hard for Republican Candidates, including the current President. (one might note that many of the Bishop's peers determined Mr. Kerry not worthy of receiving communion). Democrats, who arguably would be the most receptive to the anti-gun message, would be likely to listen less to the organization that demonized their candidate, and Republicans know that the abortion issue keeps the Bishop and his friends in their camp regardless of how they vote on firearm issues.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(23 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…